Since it's Easter...
... and Dani brought this up in her latest comment, let's talk about Reincarnation.
What do you know? What do you want to know? What do you believe? What do you not believe?
How do you feel about Jesus coming back from the dead? How about your cat or dog coming back as say, your next door neighbor, or... a sycamore tree?
When we die, where do we go?
What do you know? What do you want to know? What do you believe? What do you not believe?
How do you feel about Jesus coming back from the dead? How about your cat or dog coming back as say, your next door neighbor, or... a sycamore tree?
When we die, where do we go?
posted by Joy at 10:49 AM
19 Comments:
Yeah, I'd have to say I don't beleive in reincarnation. After I got over Christianity I thought about Buddhism and I thought it was the religion for me until I learned about the whole reincarnation thing. I don't thing that we are ever reincarnated. In a world that has a logical reason for ALMOST everything, the whole idea of a soul kind of defies reality if you ask me. Don't even get me started on Jesus and the bible. I've decided I can no longer have a civilized conversation about the bible, which is a lie, but still...
Ya know I have never had an experience like that before but due to the amounts of people that have had stories like it I find it hard to ignore the possibility fo some kind of presence remaining afer we die. Another thing that I thought of. You could say that we actually do continure on after we die in the most natural sense. Our bodies decompose (unless of course you're cremated but that's not what I'm talking about) and then we pass on the other animals and into nature and eventually the energy from our bodies help produce another human being. This just came to me and I thought that it was kind fo interesting.
Or even not necessarily a human being, it could be anythign really.
Sorry to get off subject but there must be something wrong with the blog because i doubt that so many people would have accidently double posted. Those dirty rotten scoundrels at blogspot should pay for their incompetance.
Speaking of peaceful, mellow state...
This is a section of a poem written in the 30's by Kenneth Fearing. We use it as the end of a touring show I'm working on called "Identity." This piece is called "Ressurection"
*******
You will remember the kisses real, or imagined.
You will remember the faces before you, the words exchanged.
You will remember the minute crowded with meaning, the aimless hour, the moment of pain.
You will remember hope that crawled up the bar room tap and spoke throught the confident speech of the lost.
You will remember love casually defined on the limbs of ancient millionaires.
(some cuts here)
All these things will return to you, to mingle with the sound of motors and the suns warmth.
As you work, and sleep, and talk, and laugh, and die.
****
What I think is the most interesting about the piece it that it deals with ressurection more in the sense that parts of your life return to you, rather than you returning to life in another form.
Most views of death and dying talk about your whole life flashing before your eyes.
This takes it to a more peaceful level, that maybe those flashes never end, and that they aren't flashes at all, but a non-corporial travel through our lives...both the parts that were hard, and the afternoons we spent doing crosswords in the sun on the sofa.
I think maybe that is a part of where we go when we die, which enables us to remain present in the lives of others...because we are present in them in our own memories playing out like a DVD (and we have the remote), even if not at the same time and place.
I think that kind of love and caring is an energy that transmits far stronger than "the here and now."
Much as Danny will mock me for it, I have always been a very faithful Christian. My parents both grew up in tight Irish-Catholic families and passed that tradition down to us. Since then, church has become less a chore for me and more of something to fall back on, a source of comfort when talking to another person about a problem just won't cut it.
And another misconception that I have picked up on in many of these posts: being faithful to God doesn't mean you can't have your moments of doubt...not in today's world. Many priests, if not most of them, know that times are changing. (I only wish the pope knew as much.) Being devout doesn't mean you have to accept the entire Bible as fact, nor that any misdemeanor will send you packing to hell. The Bible is a loose rubric on how to live life...a metaphor by which to act.
This may be walking on pins and needles, but to me, there has never been a question as to the existence of a higher power. Call it whatever you want (God, ma'at, etc.), but science can only explain so much. Okay, a big bang occurred 4 billion years ago.....but what started that? What set the carbon particles in motion? What created the space that was soon to become the stage for all other creation?
I've thought about it, and Heaven isn't a palace in the clouds with 24-7 bliss in all its forms. It's simply all the things from your earthly life that you want to perpetuate..so Kristin, if that includes highs with the lows, so be it. It's yours. Because you're in Heaven. Period.
Sorry to go off on this ridiculously long tangent, but I respect all other opinions and simply wanted to put in my two cents as well.
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OK guys, this is going to be a long one; actually I might split this in two. I have a lot to say but I'm not quite sure how to sort through it all: I too have considered myself a faithful Christian until recently when I've realized that most people view Christianity very differently than I always have. See, my family, as well as the church in which I grew up has been very relaxed in my religious upbringing. My family rarely talks about religion and when I have questions my parents have let me sort through them on my own. At church and in Sunday school we spend most of our time discussing what we THINK religion might mean to us. Everybody's always been so open to my ideas and me to their's. I remember once in confirmation class in 8th grade I told my pastor that I wasn't sure if I believe Jesus was the messiah and he said "Daniella, that's a beautiful thing that you've put so much thought into it." Until recently, my liberal ideas about politics and about the world had never conflicted with my religion. Once my pastor did an entire sermon on gay rights (something that is completely against the presbytery and he could have been fired for it) and everybody was so cool about it. The other day, though, I was talking with some friends about Heaven and Hell and they said that everybody who wasn't a good Christian was going to Hell. I told them that that couldn't be true because there are g'zillions of people in the world and most of them are not Christian and of those who are, few of them are ‘good’ Christians. Who in the world is completely perfect all the time? And who is God to punish so many many people…
…I have been thinking about this and, you know, most of the people who really remind me of Jesus (I know that sounds silly but I'll explain) are not ‘good Christians’ or even Christian at all. There are a few people in my life who do remind me of Jesus, not in a sense that they are like 'here to save us/son of God' type thing because I already told you I don't necessarily believe that, but you know those people that sincerely care about others and who try extra hard to do what's right, not because the Bible says so, because I think that’s kinda silly too, but because its really truly right. That's what Jesus did I think. I don't think he said and did all he did out of obligation but more out of, idonno, love? I do believe that Jesus was the son of God but not any more than you or me, aren't we all the 'children of God' in a sense, I think so. Jesus was this awesome teacher. He had morals and integrity and people listened to him. He taught a lot of people how to love each other and that's really important. We all have the capability of being divine and it doesn’t matter if you believe in every word of the bible or God or any religion at all. I believe that, in God's eyes, structured religion is trivial to morals and loving others. I find it more honorable for a person to love people and still be open to all beliefs not just the religion he practices. I talked with my youth leader about what my friends told me because I was really worked up about it and she said that she believes Heaven/Hell are the effects of what you’ve made of you're life. IE: Hitler is in Hell because whenever people talk about him we usually talk about what a Jerkface he is. Except for fellow Nazis, that is, so I guess, to them he's in Heaven. Where as Gandhi is in Heaven because when we think back on him we think of how kind and loving he was. I guess in a sense everyone lives in Heaven and Hell at some point…
…Now, I'll get to my point. I think this applies to the story of Jesus’ resurrection in that Jesus descended into Hell, but on the third day he ascended into Heaven and sit'th on the right hand of God. The Bible, like any great work of poetry, wasn't meant to be taken literally. Maybe what was meant by the tomb being empty was that Mary and the disciples had finally, on the third day, excepted his death. The tomb was empty because their grief was gone. They could open their hearts to others instead of grieving for themselves and in doing so, in remembering Jesus as this awesome guy that he was and in telling the world about him, Jesus was resurrected. He's in Heaven now because look what he did with his life, look how many people he helped. Goodness, he has two holidays all to himself and people talk and sing about how great he was like every Sunday. I don't believe the tomb was really empty Easter morning its empty because we make it empty. For me, God isn’t very concrete at all. He’s just someone/something who’s there for me, who will hold my hand, who I can pray to and talk to, who loves me. Sometimes, its just nice to talk to someone who listens, who I know for sure loves me, who knows for sure that I love Him.
I’m sorry I had so much to say. I guess I just don’t know when to stop.
Wow. What a profound discussion. I hope I can jump in at this point. Let me try.
To start... way back, Danny posted about our bodies continuing after we die. This is touching on what I was trying to write about in the scene. Maybe reincarnation, at its most basic level is about energy and how it keeps going and transforming. Maybe knowing that you'll keep going no matter what you might do in your life (or to your life) is enough to get us through.
But then this raises the question of the soul and does the soul have energy? I think from Kyle and Scott's posts about experiencing loved ones after they've passed away that yes, the soul does have energy -- at the least because the living believe that it does.
I like believing in things. Since there are things we will never actually Know (and really, what good would it do us to know them?) our options are either to believe without proof or to not believe. I find not believing very depressing. Belief is what gets me through life.
I believe in many things. I believe in love. In energy. In creativity and its products of art and life.
I believe that I was created. That I have a purpose. And that I am not alone.
I've stopped calling God "God" because I got too attached to the name and all that it represented and I lost my own understanding of the entity I believed in.
Now I don't call it anything. I just say that I believe.
I think religion, as Marnie said, can be a great structure, a community, a support. Both Dani and Marnie have described what I see as religion at its best... something that is tolerant and not infallable. I think the problem with religion is when people stop believing on their own and instead turn their belief over to an institution like religion.... When people stop thinking for themselves and stop taking responsibility for their actions.
These bad examples of religion I equate with corporations which have no human entity, no one accountable when something goes wrong. They're just big machines that run themselves and unfortunately are running much of our society today (and often into the ground).
I buy independent. I try to buy local. And when I can I don't buy at all... I stay inside and cook and make things... like art.
I try to live what I believe, which is what I think it's about -- religion or no religion.
Next up, I'll try to talk about death and heaven... fascinating stuff here.
Okay. Death and Heaven.
To add to Kristin and Marnie and Laura's thoughts...
I've always thought of heaven and hell as individual to the person. I like to think about my heaven as being a contenment and fullfillment, a letting go and becoming one with the rest of the universe because I'm at peace when my life flashes before my eyes and I'm happy with how I spent my life.
For me, heaven would be a loss of self and the sense of connecting to everything around me. When I die, I want to shed my self. It's heavy and lonely.
I like thinking about that last moment of life. I think it must be eternity. I mean, when you can't go back and there is no more (life) ahead of you... isn't that the longest moment of your life? A moment when time ceases and you just... are.
I think that moment has the possibility of being heaven or hell depending on how a person spent their life. If you are at peace with your life and feel no regret, I imagine that moment would be beautiful and you'd get to look at life from an entirely new perspective. If you feel regret at how you spent your life, I imagine that moment would be full of terror, a hell. You can't go back and change anything. This was your life and it's over now and the book is closed. I imagine in this circumstance that last infinite moment would be tortorous. Regret times infinity.
At this point may I just stress how refreshing it is to have a thought-provoking theological discussion. Tactful debate is a dying art.
Ok, let's start with Marnie. I hope you know that when I make fun of you for being a devout christian I'm just messing with ya. I think that any religion that promotes goodness without any side-effects or red tape is great. I make fun of the stubborn catholics who think that you go to hell if you don't beleive that God is a large bearded man in the sky. That's just arrogant.
Now I would like to paraphrase something that I heard in a movie which I highly recommend to everybody in this forum. It's called Waking Life and it has so many awesome (awesome in the original meaning of the word) spoken essays about philisophy and religion and buddhism and christianity and dreams and everything that is fun to talk about. Please, somebody watch this movie so that I can talk with someone about it because it really kicks. I can lend it to whoever wants it. Now, in this movie there is a part where this guy is talking about how long time must be and how when we die and see our lives flash before our eyes, that's not a flashback, that's our lives. We finally see life at the speed that it actually takes place, because our lives are SO extremely short compared to the history and future of the universe. Something interesting, I thought.
By the way, Janis. Alex says he wants to be apart of the forum. Which is good because I think we need another athiest in here, I'm getting lonely. I don't know his email though... O wait maybe I do, hang on..... Ah ha! I do.... But am I allowed to put it on the forum? Well whatever, tell me what to do... The end...
Enlightenment/becoming one with Brahma.
That's an interesting point about dreams, Katy. If that's true then I think my past lives were very similar to my present one. I always dream about stuff that is important in my life when I am usually worried or excited about or something.
If I could come back as somebody else I think I'd want to be a tree or a flower because they spend their lives just standing and watching and thinking and nobody ever expects them to say anything, and nobody ever expects them to do anything extraordinary. I could just stand there and watch people and other creatures and then laugh about it.
I agree with you, I guess I don’t really want reincarnation to exist because sometimes it’s nice to believe you’re going somewhere, not starting back at the beginning again—like in a board game; it’s fun to play but it still sucks when you land on the space that says ‘go back to start.’
I'd be an ameoba, for reasons I choose not to go through again.
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